Meaning vs. Purpose: What Actually Matters for a Fulfilled Life w/ Reese Brown

If you’ve ever felt pressure to “figure out your purpose” or wondered if you’re doing enough with your life, this conversation will completely shift how you see it.

In this episode of Clear & On Purpose, Christina sits down with writer, speaker, and coach Reese Brown to explore a more honest, freeing way to think about purpose and meaning.

Instead of treating purpose as something you have to find or achieve, this conversation reframes it as something you experience and create in your everyday life.

Together, they unpack the idea of the “spark”—that inner pull toward curiosity, meaning, and connection—and how learning to trust it can change the way you live, work, and relate to yourself.

This episode is for you if you feel overwhelmed, disconnected, or like you’re constantly chasing a version of your life that never quite feels like enough.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

•  Why the traditional idea of “finding your purpose” creates pressure and burnout 
•  The difference between purpose and meaning-making
•  How to reconnect with your inner “spark” and intuition 
•  Why your worth is not tied to your productivity or career 
•  How to bring more meaning into your everyday life (without changing everything) 
•  The role of curiosity, growth, and evolution in living a purposeful life 
•  Why purpose is not a destination—but an ongoing, evolving experience 

Key Takeaways

•  You don’t need to have your life figured out to be on the right path 
•  Purpose is not something you prove—it’s something you practice
•  The smallest moments of curiosity often hold the most meaning 
•  You are already worthy, regardless of what you achieve 
•  Living with intention starts by paying attention to what’s already there 

A Simple Practice to Try

Notice the “spark.”

That small moment of curiosity, interest, or pull—follow it.
 No pressure. No big plan. Just lean in and see what happens.

That’s where meaning begins.

About Reese Brown

Lillian Reese Brown is a speaker, mentor, and the founder of The Cohere Collective, where she helps individuals remember their inner spark and make meaning through life with purpose and Coherence. She is also the host of Making Meaning, a podcast exploring how purpose-driven people create meaning in a seemingly meaningless world through personal experience, expertise, and community impact. Blending her background in human-centered design, philosophical and linguistic frameworks, and the psychological human experience, Reese developed The Coherence Matrix, a framework for curiously evolving toward alignment, meaning, and Coherent living.

•  Podcast: Making Meaning
•  Work with Reese: Coherent Design Method 
•  Website: thecoherecollective.com 

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Transcript

 ​ If you've ever felt pressured to figure out your purpose or questioned whether you're doing enough with your life, this episode is gonna help shift that perspective in a powerful way. Today I'm joined by Reese Brown, a writer, speaker, and coach who spent years exploring the deeper question of meaning, what it is, how we create it, and why so many of us feel disconnected from it. In this conversation, we move beyond the idea of purpose as something that you achieve. And into something much more human, more accessible, and honestly more freeing. That's a good point. Welcome to Clear and On Purpose. I'm Christina, and around here we slow down, get honest and talk about the real life moments that shape us each week. I share personal stories, perspective shifts, and simple truths to help you live with more intention and ease. I'm glad you're here. Good. Yep. All right. Welcome. Today, I'm really excited. I have a guest on the podcast today. And Reese, I got exposed to your work through a mutual friend. And just enjoy so much of what you do and. The thought process behind it. And we had a conversation on your podcast not too long ago. And I'm just really excited to bring you in and have you share a little bit about what you do, the work that you do the passion and what drives you behind it, and really just dig into a lot of the topics that we had talked about and that you get into in your work. But why don't we start just by having you give us a little bit of your background. What do you do and why do you do it? Yes, absolutely. One, thank you so much for having me, Christina. I've been so looking forward to chatting even more. I feel like every time we get to talk, we just go to so many places and I just leave our conversations feeling so full. So thank you for having me and for this opportunity. Now to answer your question so my name is Reese and I always like to start by sharing that. Ever since I was little, ever since I can remember. The very first thing that I remember experiencing remembering in this life is this deep sense of purpose, of spark, of I am meant to do something here in this life. And when I was little, the language that I was given to understand that feeling was Christianity. I am born and raised in Texas, and so Southern Baptist Christianity is very much the water we swim in down here. And that worked for a few years until I began being exposed to so many different philosophies and religions and worldviews that we're talking about the same sense of spark and purpose, but using different words in different languages. And very quickly I began to realize this is not. Isolated to just me. This experience is not just a Reese experience, and even though this sense of purpose made me feel very special, and it does make me feel very special, I'm not special in having that feeling and that kickstarted a very long journey of trying to understand what the heck is going on here. Why are we here, what does it mean and how do we make meaning out of it? If there is some meaning to be made here, which I deeply believe there is. Now practically fast, fast forward a little bit. I've been studying the human experience academically, but also professionally for about eight years now. And through this study, I really came to the concepts of meaning making and purpose. These are the two things that in wanting to understand how human beings connect, what's foundational to the human experience, what really is humanity? Those are the two things that just always seem to arise, always seem to come up in conversation. And so I'm just fascinated with these concepts. And now I. Am a writer. I also am a speaker, and I just love talking about these things, but I also work one-on-one primarily with young women, but with anyone that is asking these questions for themselves and would like someone walking that path alongside them. I do offer life coaching. I, but I like to say I'm just, I'm your partner and purpose. This is not a me telling you what to do or what to think or what your purpose should look, sound, feel like, but an exploration, a curiosity journey of making meaning in trying to make this life feel as purposeful as possible and move forward in a way that is impactful, not just individually, but also in community and in connecting to other people. What impact can we make? What can we give back, and also what can we receive? So that's what I do now and it's my favorite thing in the world to talk about it because I think it's something that we don't talk about enough, but it is also the thing that is embedded into everything. We cannot escape these questions, and yet it's really easy to let the hustle and bustle and the noise and all of the life things get in the way. So I love having this time to just sit, settle in and talk about the juicy bits of life. Yeah. So when you were talking and you said, I have had Al always, or I've always had this sense of like purpose and I've had this sense that I, like I'm here for a reason. What does that feel like to you and when do you think that you first. Kind of identified that feeling as being something that, you had said it's not just unique to you that you have this feeling, but feeling oh. Wow. That's giving my life and my, it's giving me more of a feeling of worthiness purpose, whatever you wanna put in there. Yeah. Do you have a specific like time period that you think that started to come up? Was it part of just that faith that you had initially been in, involved in? Or how did that come about for you? Yeah. I think the interesting thing is there's not really a precise moment that I remember feeling oh this is the thing. I just remember always feeling this deep sense of seeking, of looking for what it was, of wanting a word or a sentence, or a task or a job. 'cause growing up you're very much asked what do you wanna be when you grow up? And so I thought once I found whatever that was, that it would be, oh, I found the thing that's making me feel this way. And that just never quite happened. The way I talk about this feeling now is like a spark. And I do believe, there's words for this across so many different cultures and traditions and it's this ancient ancients experience. But in the West we are pretty much the only culture that doesn't have a word for it, but you could call it Qi, key soul, spirit energy, prana. A lot of people look at this as like a DNA thing as well, and I believe we can absolutely talk about it in scientific terms. So I just call it soul energy, for lack of a better term. But I believe we all have this spark that sits at the heart, at the root of our. Soul of our energy. And as we go through different experiences in life, there are things that start to tend to that spark and fan it into a flame, and it can get bigger and we can feel it a little bit more. And I like to think of that experience as tending this flame to be like a central home hearth around which you can fuel your life. But oftentimes we're taught to ignore that spark, to ignore that feeling that you're not special. That's actually just wishful thinking that feeling you have, everyone has that feeling. But you gotta grow up. You gotta be realistic. These things that I think so many of us hear, so having that feeling of this spark, I was lucky enough to have parents that and communities and mentors that really encouraged me to build a relationship with it. And I was also very lucky to have an extremely diverse group of friends and community. And I will never forget being, I wanna say it was nine years old and these questions were already coming up for me, and I'm like, what is this? What is this? What is this? And I stayed the night at a new friend's house and her family are Bahai, which is a pretty modern religion, but it's, I believe right now, the quickest growing religion in the world. And I had no idea what this was as a 9-year-old. And I, of course, having been in a Christian community was like, oh my gosh. I remember my mom picked me up from my sleepover the next morning and I just start crying. And she's are you okay? And I'm like, my friend's going to hell. And my sweet mom was like. No, she's not. But let's talk about it. Let's explore where these feelings come from and what they mean. Because clearly we just want answers for these things. And so through having met this friend that had been given a very different language for understanding what all of these things were and clicking with her so quickly and building such a deep and intimate friendship, but then also post this conversation with my friend about her religion and how her family goes about answering these questions and talking with my mom who is, taking me to church and read me the Bible who is sitting here telling me Your friend isn't going to hell. It's okay. I'm like hang on. Something isn't fully clicking here. And I think that was just a such. Flash. Flash bulb. Why can't I think of the word light bulb? Light bulb, thank you, or totally left my brain. Such a light bulb moment that was there is so much out there that I do not understand and that I want to be able to experience and have conversations like this, like I did with my friend, with everyone. And how do they answer these questions and why does that matter so deeply? Why is this something that is so tied up in our emotions and our feelings and in how we live every day? And then of course, religions also have ethical moral value structures that are assigned and how does it impact our daily living? So that was really, I think the first time that I was like, this is going to be a guiding point in how I live my life. Yeah. I think that one of the things that I really appreciate about when you're having these discussions and encountering that for the first time. 'cause I think that there are many of us that grew up in very sheltered or very conservative Christian, whatever. It was like so many like-minded people and you don't really get that outside. But coming to it, having that, like having, this is the experience of what I have been taught, I have been raised with, and then having this outside experience can be tr like it can be traumatizing almost a little bit. Oh my gosh, like I love this person and also like their beliefs don't square with me. But to have. Parents and family that not only, had, set you up and this is what we believe, but being open-minded enough to be able to say no, this isn't it doesn't have to be this whole thing of this is what we believe, but it's totally fine that they believe this and it doesn't have to be where your friend is going to hell. And being able to have that. And I think that as we've talked and as you've talked about all of the different ways and how coming in, it took me till I was much older to be able to have these conversations in ways where I was able to be given a lot more information about all of the different cultures and all the different beliefs that there are. And being able to pull in all of that and thinking what it really comes down to for all of us is just that inner spark that, that belief in something more than us that, that, that feeling that ties us to the greater humanity, the greater everything. Yes. And that is what is universal. And it's not that the specific religions or the specific beliefs of any of 'em and honestly when you're looking at it that way and having that ability to be able to do that from such a young age I think is probably what helped fuel all of this curiosity in you and bring, being able to dig in and be able to have these conversations on a much more global, but also like it makes it so much more personal because it's then it's outside of this specific religion doesn't become like I have to agree with everything that's in this specific thing, or I have to find this path that's, this is already within me. I just have to open up to it and we are all having this universal experience in whatever way that is. Yes I completely agree. And I want to highlight how lucky I am to have had a safe space to ask these questions because I know a lot of people that I was raised with and friends with at the time and still am now, that if they had been nine and had a friend of another religion and talked to their parents about it, their parents would've said, yeah, they're going to hell, or even you can't be friends with them. And that, that could have been a completely different trajectory for me and who knows how that would've impacted me and my psyche. And so my parents, for all of their flaws and faults, as any parent has, of course. One thing that they always made sure that me and my brother had was a safe space to explore and be curious and a belief in that we can learn and do anything we set our minds to. And that is just the greatest gift I have ever been given. And I think that because of that, this curiosity was not just seeded in me, maybe innately, maybe from my parents, but it was also very much cultivated in the spaces that I was in. And I am just so grateful for that. And I completely resonate with what you're saying about this kind of universal experience. And I remember in this conversation with my mom, and it's something I still talk about a lot today, it's really stuck with me, is her boiling down these two religions. Because of course, at the time it was like, this is my first exposure to the idea that there is a quote unquote different. God, I thought God was the one. And her saying let's really look at what they believe. And she hadn't heard of this religion. So we researched Bahai together and dug in and wanted to know more. And it's a beautiful religion. The I actually use several of their holy texts and practices in my spirituality now because it really is such a gorgeous way of thinking about the world. One thing that my mom broke down for me was after we've done this research and learned more clearly, the heart of what we are trying to believe and teach you and what they are trying to believe and teach your friend is love God, love one another. There's something bigger than us and there is a duty we have to ourselves and to other people in community. And it's that really is this fundamental kind of value system that exists across all religions and spiritualities. And then this answering of this deeper piece of, but why am I here? And humans being the storytellers innate, we are wired to make meaning. We come up with beautiful creation stories and myths and mythologies around why we believe things that we do, why we act the way we do, why we feel this duty to each other, and. Different people have come up with these different mythologies, and it is nothing sort short of miraculous or magical to me that they always come back to. There is meaning to be made here. We are connected to something bigger than just ourselves. And also the individual is also divine. And I think that's a question that religion, spirituality mysticism, any, anything in the numinous kind of realm seeks to answer is the paradox of being so deeply connected and also being an individual and what that relationship there really looks like. And I think existing in that paradox is very spiritual and very human to me. One of the things that you had said, and I think that. I know from my personal experience, and I know when I've talked to other people that have had similar experiences as well, is that feeling that spark, feeling that sense of something more, I'm here for something more. And I think for me it felt like something I was chasing for a very long time. It felt like something I was trying to find. And I think that for a lot of people either, it's hidden away where I'm not really engaging with it. I'm busy, I'm doing my life, I'm doing whatever. Or it can become this like all consuming, like I am on my soul path. I'm seeking, I'm trying to find that meaning and that bigger purpose for me. And I think for you when we have spoken too, is what that looks like for you. I would love for you to talk about what does it mean to have this bigger meaning, and then also in terms of that universality and having it be not so internally driven and finding more of that within community as well. Yes. I know we've talked about that too. Absolutely. Thank you so much. It's a very powerful and generous question as well. Thank you. The word purpose itself, I think is so fraught and it's why I use it to describe my story because it is the word that we have to talk about this feeling, but I tend to revert back to using this word spark instead because I've really redefined what purpose means to me and it's now a framework that I use when I am speaking or working one-on-one with clients and any. Big group, small group, anything like that. Because I think it gives so much freedom when we take away the pressure that this word purpose carries. And thinking about this balance of I want to live a deeply meaningful, a deeply purposeful this soul journey, something that is bigger than me. Oh yeah, I need to go to the grocery store. And also I do need to get gas before I do that, so I should leave five minutes early. And I did wanna make that yoga class. And it's like just so quickly we get pulled in a million different directions and to try and come back to center, to alignment on something. It just feels like we're constantly in this tug of war. And I think for me personally, I really wanted to remove this feeling of fighting myself and fighting reality. Because even though I do believe there's a quote out there and I'm going to forget who says it, but it's the idea that humans are spiritual beings having a human experience, right? And I think that's very true in a lot of ways. But the fact remains that we are having a human experience and we have human earthly 3D material bodies that need shelter and water and love and all sorts of things. And I think oftentimes when we talk about these big picture things, those bodily human things are minimized and the idea of suffering and relationships and things on a small scale from you need to stay hydrated all the way to a very large scale of there are mass atrocities happening around us all the time. I am very wary of the spiritual bypassing that can come in that is. But this is all for a bigger purpose, and that's really where this concept of coherence comes in for me. And this idea that whatever your bigger purpose is. It has to work for you in reality, because no matter how spiritual you are, no matter how divinely connected you feel, no matter how much you tend that inner spark into a flame, if that is causing you to ignore friendships, relationships, community atrocities, your neighbors, to me, that's not spirituality. That's not intellectually honest, actually with reality, with what's going on. And I think that is I'll use this word again. The paradox of the human being is that we are sandwiched in the liminality of the earth and the divine. And instead of trying to say, the earthly doesn't really matter. And so I'm just gonna focus on this one aspect of experience I think is missing half, half the pie. But then also we have this other, more material, not materialistic, but materialism kind of point of view and naturalism point of view in terms of philosophy that while all of the numan mystical stuff that we can talk about energy, it's not really real. So I'm also just gonna focus in this world, you're also missing half the pie. And I think that's the gift of being a human being is that. We get both. We get to experience both. And the exchange in dialogue that is had between those two worlds is where we walk. It's where we live. And I really love imbuing, at least for me, in my own practices extremely mundane things with things that feel extremely spiritual and juicy and rich to me. And also these extremely spiritual practices. I love to make them so every day so mundane because there is something deeply divine about touching grass. Coming home to my pet, being excited to see me pour, being able to drink a cup of water. I'm like, as mundane as that is. What a gift of experience. And also, I, through my experience, have come up with a practice and spirituality that is a hodgepodge combination of a lot of different things that help me feel connected and present and coherent. And when I do that, I also love joking about it and making, jokes when I'm praying. I, I love laughing with my guides and energies that I work with. And I also love, writing poetry down in the middle of a dinner with friends and just the merge in blend I think is something we all deserve to pull an eye to. And it's something that. It is often not talked about, and I think it's part of this meaning crisis as well, that a lot of people are pointing at. I think it's this deep disconnection between these two halves of self that we know we all have, we all experience both of these halves. And to ignore one or the other or even to sever them, I think is a mistake. Yeah. I think that the idea that you have of that coherence and that ability to merge the everyday with the bigger picture, with the bigger spirituality and our sense of purpose that to me embodies all of the techniques and all of the things that we do in terms of like mindfulness or, meditation or doing whatever, being present. Like we're giving all of these guidelines of how we can try to. Extract more meaning and feel more meaning in our lives. But it can feel really separate and sometimes it can feel like something I do. So okay, I meditate in the morning and then, okay, now that part's done and now I go about my day. But being able to have that ability to look at it and say like, how can I bring both of these into my day-to-day? How can I go and eat my breakfast and enjoy how much it's nourishing my body? And the fact that all of these plants and animals and whatever, were here and they're here and they're on my plate and I'm able to enjoy them and I have these taste buds that can do like all of that. And being able to look at it and be able to bring both in a way that you're talking about. It just makes it seem. Not that it's more doable. 'cause I think it's still gonna take intention. It's still gonna take that, like being able to be aware of it, but it makes it seem like, oh, maybe I can just change the way I'm looking at it. And that idea that our purpose, our journey, our meaning in our lives is not something separate. It's not something that I have to go seek. It's not something that I have to, okay, say goodbye to my family and my real life and go on this, week long meditation retreat and sit in silence. I, I can incorporate it because it is part of me. And if I just allow that to come forward rather than seeking something outside of me to fill that, it's going to actually give me those feelings that I am craving. Yes I completely agree with everything you're saying. And also I hope that this concept of coherence makes others feel the same way too. Because I think, going back to what we talked about at the beginning, one of my great mentors once told me it's easy to be spiritual on the side of a mountain. It's hard to be spiritual in traffic on the highway, and yet, which experience do you have more often and which do we want to imbue with? Meaning? And it's so true that it's not necessarily going to be. Easy, but it might be unfamiliar and we can slowly work on making the experience more and more familiar and therefore it's going to feel a little bit more second nature. Just because it feels a little strange and odd and un uncomfy doesn't mean that we have to label it as like hard and difficult and pushing the boulder up the hill, but it is just that routine practice. And I love what you said about mindfulness too, because for me, this practice has become very much about mindfulness and I absolutely, in all of my exploration had a Zen Buddhist stint and all of that good stuff and adopted so many beautiful tidbits from meditation and mindfulness. And I think something that's so helpful with this is the concept of present awareness. And any moment you pause, take a breath and call present awareness to the moment. It just allows you a little bit of space to acknowledge the reality of what's happening. Like even right now to pause and take a breath and realize there's a microphone in front of me. I'm having a beautiful conversation. What a blessing. To be connecting with another human being. I'm grateful to have water and be in the air conditioning 'cause it's already getting hot in Texas again. Or even for listeners who may be driving their car or on a walk or doing dishes. Right now, just taking that pause and noticing there is a steering wheel beneath my hands and I can feel it and I'm moving very quickly or there's running water coming out of my tap. Just having. An eye towards what's really going on allows just a noticing of the meaning making that is already happening. It is impossible not to make meaning as a human being. I think it's our task to remember that process is already happening. To be an active participant in the meaning making that exists all around us all the time. Yeah. And the idea that you can bring it into more of a playful space, like it doesn't have to be so serious. Yeah. I think that I can get caught up in okay, I need to go and I'm gonna sit on my meditation and I'm gonna sit here and I, I can't have any distractions. I can't, but that's. Really missing the whole point of it all is that honestly it would be probably better for my whole mindfulness journey. If I am in the middle, the children are yelling in the background or whatever and I'm still able to like tap into the absurdity and also still ever present feeling of that connection to something bigger. Like I can be trying to do all of these things and like noticing my humanity within it. Like I'm getting distracted. I'm noticing these things. Oh my gosh, I'm trying to, but like I am on a growth journey and I am I am continuously trying to do these things even with everyday life going around and being able to bring that in and like relieving the pressure. Of having it be something that has to be serious, that has to be my one true calling. That is my thing that's going to give me all of my professional, personal, financial, relational, all of the things is gonna be in this one thing that I just have to find. And being able to bring it into, no, it's already within me. I just have to open up to it. And can you talk a little bit about, because I'm sure that when you are talking to people, when you're having these conversations, this comes up. 'cause I think that a lot of times we equate a sense of purpose with my career, my identity, how I am making money in the world, how I'm doing all of these things. And all I have to do is align with that. And once I get that figured out, everything else will be fine. Absolutely. I think that's such an important question. And I also real quick wanna talk about the word you used absurdity, because I think it's such a beautiful word. And one of my favorite philosophers is an absurdist philosopher, Albert Kmu, who says, we live in an absurd world because of the absolute inexplicably of everything that we experience and the deep desire that a human has to want to make it make sense. And that tension is just it's absurd. It's a little absurd. And I think that it's beautiful to be able to laugh about it and then to say, and I'm gonna make meaning anyways. But listening to you talk about this purpose and. I think a lot of people fall in different camps in terms of, I want my purpose to be my career. I want it to be what makes me money, or I want that to stay far away from money. And, there's a bunch of different opinions on that. And I am very much of the tack. You need to figure out what your own personal value system is based on your own worldview, and then make active choices there. So I certainly live my life wanting my purpose to be the thing that is my vocation, is my work, is my career. But not everyone feels that way. And that's okay. So first I just want to couch that, that just because there's a way that I engage with this, even in being someone who researches it and talks about it, it's just my iteration of it. And I'm absolutely an advocate of everyone's is gonna look a little different and have their own flavor. And that's part of the beauty of individuality. I think also just talking about this, I'm like, just how much pressure is that right? To try and figure it out and have a word for it, or a sentence for it, or a job title. And like in one day it's gonna be this thing and I'm like, that it raises my heart rate. It gets my fight or flight going. I'm like, and that's just so much, it's just so much to put on one person. And in addition to that, it's so much to put on young people that, basically in high school we start telling them like, you gotta figure it out. You gotta get your life together. And to me it's that is just way too much at that age. But also it's way too much in any one moment to say, there is one thing, one word, one aha. That's going to make it all make sense. So I'd actually like to share a little bit of how I've redefined purpose. 'cause I think it allows, some of what I'm gonna say to be a little bit more accessible. So I think the way we really talk about purpose is that it is this isolated, fixed, stagnant thing. That is this one thing that we encounter in life and that should be what you're reaching towards. And that has been one of the biggest breakthroughs for me, is that it's gonna evolve, it's gonna change. And releasing the pressure of, you need to figure out what that job is. You need to figure out what that feeling is, what that hobby is, what that fill in the blank is just such a breath of fresh air. 'cause now I'm like, okay, maybe I can just figure out what purpose right now is, maybe I can just figure out what gives me that feeling of spark. What reminds me that I'm making meaning and what reminds me of that feeling that spark gives me? And just lean into that. I think is really. Freedom. At least that's how it feels to me. And I think how it feels to a lot of people. And I think because of this, it releases that anxiety and it allows for more curiosity. So that's another change to really take away this idea that it's something you have to have figured out yesterday and allow it to be fuel for exploration and failing forward even. And then we talked a little bit about community, or you asked a question that touched on it and we had, I didn't really address that portion, but I do think too true purpose is often like it is your purpose is what we're told, right? It's your calling. It's what you were created for, you were made for. And to me the number one thing that I have found that is true across anyone who gets right with themself, this feeling of spark and leans into the curiosity. The thing that they always wanna do is help other people with it. Make community, give back, connect. And when you're in a place of passion, of purpose, of curiosity, you're more open to having more authentic conversations and connections. And you're not constantly searching for ways to imbue yourself into conversations because you're good you. You are already giving yourself what you need and therefore you can take a little bit more time when you are in community to uplift and support others, right? So I think this kind of shifted definition of purpose also helps with community. And then I think the biggest thing that is such an anxiety relief is that purpose is not the thing that makes you worthy. It is not something to achieve. It is not something to check the box on. It is not something that when I do it, then I will be okay. Then I will have made it. Then I will be happy. Then finding the sense of true purpose says I am enough. As I am. I'm inherently worthy. The spark that I feel is enough, is good as it is, and existing in that feeling is purposeful and is contributing something really beautiful. And on top of this, if we make purpose a box, we need to check what happens after you check that box. Game over, right? I want to keep exploring, keep leaning in, keep being curious and learning and building community and sharing and connecting. And I think through taking these small pieces of how we've collectively as a society, been talking about purpose for a really long time and stripping it down, making it less isolated, more connected, more less stagnant with more of an eye towards evolving. It allows it to be these words that you are using, this journey, this exploration, as opposed to an end point. Something that one day we will reach. And also, I don't know about you, but anytime I set a goal for myself, that's and then when X happens, I'll be happy. I always find something else to be unhappy about. When I hit that goal weight, I'll be so happy. But now. Even though I was insecure about my tummy, now I'm insecure about my arms and purpose will happen the exact same way where it's when I hit X, Y, Z, there's always gonna be something else. If you're putting that pressure on yourself to have to be generating and figuring it out perfectly. Yeah. I think that the way that you frame that and the ability to be able to bring that into this is my growth, this is my evolution. Honestly, my purpose and my meaning making is that growth is part of it. That is inherently part of it. My moving from where I am and evolving into where I'm going to be, that in itself is giving me meaning. Yes. And being able to have that, and I think that fits in with that like idea of coherence, is that. It is not I'm falling behind. It is not that I have so much untapped potential within me that I am just not locking into. It is not that I am just on the outside and like you said, like looking and where's that endpoint? It is. I can embrace and I can bring it and I can open myself up to the fact that I am a growing, evolving person. I am curious and by nature I am sharing and I am connecting and I'm connecting with myself. I'm connecting with community. And that is purpose. And then that does get to grow and evolve and change. And so that line moving that we are constantly feeling the need to do of now it's this point. Now it's this point. If my line is that I'm just evolving and I'm just seeing where it's gonna go and I'm just opening myself up for more ability to call in those feelings that I'm looking for, like that is the line that can keep moving because I'm constantly going to be growing. I'm constantly gonna be growing and evolving and changing. And that's not gonna feel like I'm behind if I'm really just centering it within how I'm feeling, how I'm interacting, what I'm valuing with myself. And I think that you spoke to something so important. 'cause even in the beginning, like equating, and I think that I had asked a question, it was like what is the purpose? What is your worthiness? Because I think that we so often equate worthiness with our purpose in doing the things. And you had said, like this is, these are separate things and this is not anything to do with one another. You do not have to. Seek this thing over here in order to be worthy. And I just really want to bring that back for Yeah, the listeners too. Like you are so much worthy just as you are and it does not have to equate to what you're doing with your position, whether you're making money, whether you're not making money, doing what you think is your purpose. And I think that being able to look at it and say I mean I have people that I work with too that are stay-at-home moms and so are they then not having purpose? 'cause they're not getting monetary? No, because they can find so much meaning, so much purpose in what they're doing. You can have something where you are a lawyer in real life and in your professional life, but really your purpose is all of these other things. But you can bring that same energy, that same enthusiasm to your professional or keep it separate. It doesn't have to be one linear path. And I really like that you just open up. The way that I'm thinking about things, I think that the way the listeners are thinking about things to question where we might have drawn those lines on what we think that it needs to make or to mean and what box we're putting all of these things in. Yes, I hope so. I hope, oftentimes I feel like I can be a little bit of a power moment for people for my fellow tarot enthusiasts out there, or like a leveler where it's like in order to face this, you have to deconstruct a lot of where those lines have come from and that may look like changing patterns of behaviors that have been really ingrained in neural pathways that are really formed that we need to start looking at. But I think. When you give yourself this permission to do that, it suddenly becomes a process of not just deconstructing, but letting the deconstruction be a reclamation of self and a remembrance of that allows such a solid foundation to begin to form out of everything. Like we are already practicing this work. Everyone, I believe, already has the tools in their tool belt to do it, and it can be scary to acknowledge. I'm really gonna try and bring some awareness to doing it, but giving yourself the permission to leaning in, doing it, scared anyways it goes back to this paradox that we were talking about a little bit earlier too, where there is something odd about when you give yourself. The idea and the power and ability to hold that I am already worthy. It actually makes it so much easier to chase the things you think will make you worthy. 'cause it gives you the freedom to actually explore that with curiosity and openness. Because if you fail, if you make a mistake, there's not so much pressure on it. And so it makes it easier to go forward. So it's paradoxical in the sense that it's if I'm already worthy, why am I still chasing something, creating something, wanting to move towards something. And to me it's that's just the evolving process of life. And this paradox that. Knowing that you are already worthy is also the worthiness that we are constantly moving towards in the deconstruction and reconstruction of self. That in and this journey can be purpose just in and of itself, or you can add in some different languages into it, like practicing law, like being a teacher, like journaling, like painting, like anything. If you wanna adopt these other languages to explore what these things mean, I think that's beautiful. But also I know a lot of people who just finding this feeling in feeling like I'm doing the work is the purpose, and that also is enough. Healing just yourself, returning to just yourself is also completely changing the world. Yeah. So beautiful. I think too, when you were talking about like that paradox of being able to hold the fact that you're worthy and that being the fuel or the ability to give you that courage to pursue the things that maybe you wanted to do that are going to give you more of that sense of meaning. And I think about the fact that yes, if you are already inherently worthy, then it doesn't matter if you do the thing and it doesn't work out like that playful energy of just being like, I'm just experimenting. I'm just seeing, I can go paint that picture because you know what, if it's terrible, it doesn't reflect on me at all. And also like I'm gonna open myself up to seeing what it is that I actually have inside me instead of trying to make it look like I think that it should or that I think other people will accept it. And I think that sometimes we get, and especially in the spaces that we're in. To where you're having conversations, you are speaking at events, you're giving the information. Sometimes it can be it can feel like what I should be doing is saying the things that I think that they're gonna wanna hear. It should be presenting myself in a way that I think that is, is for this crowd. But I think that going in, being like, you know what? I am so connected with my own sense of worthiness. I am so connected with the feeling that I'm just here to share my thoughts and my views. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't land for everyone. It doesn't matter if other people view me in a different way than I view myself that I can just come and I can just be me. And that's that like authenticity piece that I think so many are also like. Searching for trying to get and connect to. It's just who am I on the inside? And I think that it is that disconnect between feeling worthy in ourselves and feeling like we're trying to chase that and find that better version of us that's really right. Yes. And I think even to go back a little bit to this a little bit of the spirituality piece we were talking about, I think that in self-development, self-growth, spiritual mystic spaces, there's this concept of the higher self of the better self of some version of you that is out there that we are working towards. And I don't know if you can tell, but I really like language and I like manipulating it to feel more coherent to me and my worldview. But a rebrand that, or a rework that I've done with the higher self is a wholer self. Because I think it, it speaks to this deconstruction is reconstruction and a reclamation of pieces of me that I may have buried or I may have let be ignored, or that I may have even bullied out of myself because I didn't think they were acceptable or tolerable. Or lovable. And. Moving into this state of wholeness is actually a return, not an ascension. There's not something above us that is going to, again be the magic answer, the open sesame door. Aha. We've arrived. And I think that there's such a misconception with the idea of like enlightenment and finally becoming your highest self. That is similarly, like there's no box to check. It is in the midst of everything. What would life look like if you thought, I'm already enlightened, I'm already ascended. I have. Every piece of myself is already within me. And so that wholeness I can step into, I can choose to step into that. And that, I think too, is this concept of coherence to me with speaking to the authenticity piece that is, what I wanna bring all of what I have to this meeting, to this speaking engagement. It is allowing all of these expansive pieces of yourself to be channeled into one individual moment, one kind of instantiation of everything that you can be here. And now what am I gonna bring to the table? But all of me, and it is both so infinite and expansive, but also so individual to just you. And knowing that all of those things. Is worthy as it is, I think does give this bravery for exactly like you're saying, to just be authentic and know the people that I'm pushing away. They don't get it. They're not my people. They are not going to vibe on this energy that I am on. And the ones that are gonna stay, they are going to really stay. And one of my quotes that I have for myself this year actually, 'cause this concept of authenticity is one that I personally really do struggle with and wanting to show up and be honest, is I'm done watering myself down. It's okay if someone doesn't like it, it's okay. If they don't want to finish this cup of tea, they can spit it out. But I don't wanna be just a mild cup of tea because then. Then what is it bland, boring, heard of before? And I believe every single one of us is so much more than that. And we deserve to give ourselves the permission to be more than that. But also the world deserves you at your boldest strongest. And honestly, for lack of a better term, most offensive kind of not in the let's go be rude and mean and all of that good stuff. Like definitely taking into consideration compassion and connection. But, well, and I think that the work that we do too is often challenging. It's challenge in terms of challenging people's assumptions, challenging our own thinking. And to do that, sometimes it can be a little abrasive. Like I always tell my clients like, I am here for you. I will. Support you. I am on your side a hundred percent. Like I am your cheerleader. And also there's gonna be times you're probably not gonna enjoy what I'm saying, or there's gonna be times where I'm gonna challenge you and I'm going to look at and make take a mirror to those beliefs, those things that you're thinking and look at it. And it's not to say that I'm going to be right all the time, but it is to say I want you to really think about this. I want you to come up with, is this something that is the way that you want it to be? Like, is the way that you're showing up is this perspective that you are living in how you want to be? And being able to do that. I think it sometimes is, it can feel easier to just, to water it down, but I think we need more of that gentle challenge. Not the offensive, not that I'm gonna just say things so I get all the right or the, all the views and all the things with people, but no, let's look at this. Let's notice and let's look at the systems that are around us that we need to look at and challenge. Let's use our voices to look at and notice the things about ourselves that we need to look at and challenge and having that ability to have, and I think we had this conversation on your podcast too but like those rough edges and be able to show up in all of our ness and be able to know that it's okay if we're not completely understood. It's okay if we're not liked. And like you're saying, like they could spit the tea out. Like maybe that is not for me. They need to go find their own and we all have different tastes and that's beautiful. If we all like the same thing, that would be really boring too. Yeah, absolutely. And I love the way you say rough edges because it's like, there, there are things in life that require a rough edge. There are things in life that need, I don't wanna say harshness but a certain amount of strength and wherewithal to bring that to the table. And I also think too about motherhood as an example or an analogy of this, it's often characterized as so gentle and nurturing and soft and warm and loving and yes, it is. All of those things. I have also never been more scared than when a mom is protecting her child. It's talk about a rough edge too. Motherhood is also there's teeth in it and there is a bite. And I think it's it's okay to acknowledge that yes, we are all light, but light casts a shadow. And shadow does not have to be something that is bad or scary or that makes us unlovable and un unlikeable and something that should be kept in the closet and we can take it out when we're ready for it and we can deal with it alone. It is 99.9% of the time. I would feel comfortable saying it is always accept that, I don't know. There's always an exception to a rule, right? Yes. But shadow is simply the inverse of light. And our greatest strength is often just an inverse of what we consider our greatest weakness. And the main difference is usually context. I have friends who. Are very harsh and abrasive, and they are not the ones that I usually go to when I need a pat on the back and a pick me up. But they are absolutely the ones that I go to when I need someone in my corner fighting a battle with me. And it's the very same skillset, the very same strength that they hold that, that ability, that can do both of those things. And so recognizing that it does not make us bad, and that the shadowy bits and the things that we are ashamed of are also the things that are going to be your best thing to someone and. A sharp knife is a safe knife. I think you, you talking about rough edges made me think of that on our other conversation. It's like being truthful with it and with yourself, I think is the safest way to wield those abilities as opposed to trying to contain them and squash them and make them more palatable. Yeah. I think this conversation has been so wonderful for my soul, for my inner being. I just, I love having these conversations with you. I love the perspective and the way that you are able to use and manipulate and the wording and be able to make it seem accessible to make it seem. Doable for people and to just help them to be able to open themselves up to their own light, to be really honest with themselves and be able to just bring more of that meaning into their lives. Reese, can you give a little bit more information just on what you do on like. How people can work with you if they want more about your podcast. It's all wonderful. So if you could share some of that. Thank you so much. That means so much to me. Thank you, Christina. Yes, if anyone is interested in listening to me. Yap a little bit more about these things. I do have a podcast called Making Meaning, where I interview people about how they find and make meaning and do this work, and Christina was so generous to be a guest on that podcast as well. So I definitely recommend starting with that episode to dip your toe in the water. And. Liking and subscribing all of the great things for the podcast is such a help. But if you are ready to do this work and get into the deep end, and like I said, not necessarily have someone to coach you through it, but to have someone walk this journey with you and be your partner in purpose, I have a method that I call coherent design, where I work one-on-one with people to do this work, tap back into that spark, remember themselves in the meaning making. That is already happening. And there's a free 30 minute consultation that I do for anyone who is interested, just to chat a little bit more about what that process looks like and that can be found through my website the cohere collective.com. And I also do all sorts of other things. I do popups and workshops and I, I think I mentioned tarot. I, I read tarot as well, so you'll be able to find all sorts of other fun little things I do. But the podcast and the one-on-one purpose connection is my two main things. So if anyone is interested in learning more, I would love to have a chat about it with anything. And feel free to also send me a dm. All of my social media handles are at the Cohere Collective. Would love to hear from you and chat more there as well. Perfect. And we'll have links to all of that stuff in the show notes as well. Reese, if there is one thing that you could share with our audience, one takeaway, something that they could use as they're going forward in their day, as they're looking at their week coming ahead and really, thinking about and digesting some of this conversation, what's one thing that they could do that could maybe be an actionable thing or a practical item that they could bring forward? Whether it's a mindset shift, whether it's an action that they can do that might be able to just be that one little bit that'll start to bring that meaning into their life. I, I wanna say. I think it's so easy to discount the spark when we see it or feel it or hear it within ourselves. And if you felt it at all during this conversation or throughout the day, listen to it. Lean in and just see what happens. Don't put any expectations on it to radically change everything, but believe it, trust it, trust that is you, and that you are worth leaning into that feeling and trusting it, even if it's just this one time. And just see how it feels when you lean into it. And maybe it's a desire of, oh my gosh, I haven't painted in a while. Maybe I'll. Grab some watercolors or maybe it's leaning into stop at a cafe on the way home and just get a cup of coffee. What, whatever that little glimmer is, lean in because you are worth it, but also the world deserves and needs your spark to. Thank you so much, Reese. I really appreciated our conversation. I appreciate you taking the time and sharing your wisdom with my listeners and thank you so much. Thank you, Christina. This conversation is one that stays with you. If there's anything I hope you take from today, it's this first, your purpose is not something you have to prove. You are already worthy exactly as you are, and when you release the pressure to figure it all out, you actually create more space to explore what feels true. And second, don't ignore the spark. Those small moments of curiosity, that pull of interest, they matter more than you think. You don't need a big plan. Just lean in and see where it leads. That's where your life starts to feel like your own. If this episode would resonated with you, share it with someone who needs to hear it, and as always, I'd love to hear what stood out to you. Thank you for tuning in to clear and on purpose. If this conversation resonated, the best way to support the show is to rate, review or send it to someone who'd love it to. And if you wanna be the first to hear about new offerings or coaching spots, you can join the wait list@christinaslayback.com. Until next time.